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I remember when I was first trying to get a gig in the music industry. I figured that with the rock stars and the sunglasses and all, this must be one hedonistic way to make a living.

Not exactly.

I saw something else when I got my foot in the door in the early '90s. Record labels were straight-laced formica joints owned by liquor companies and run by Faustian clean shaves who sold Dishwalla by day and bought Big Star by night. There was accountability. There was bottled water. There was all this talk about "at the end of the day..." When these folks were young, did they dream of someday writing a marketing plan for The Verve Pipe?

But there's a reason it isn't called the music turn-people-on-to-your-favorite-bands-and-maybe-smoke-a-joint-while-you're-at-it. It's the music business. Large sums of money are involved. These people could have you killed if they wanted to.

Naturally there are people in the music business who put the music in front of the business. A onetime Philly DJ who landed a job at Atlantic, produced stacks of high-profile jazz and pop records, and currently runs his own label, Joel Dorn works only with the music he likes. Citing Celtics coach Red Auerbach as his role model, he's a passionate, self-effacing kinda guy who believes in teamwork and the counsel that can only be found in one's gut. And when he refers to guys as "cats" and calls you "baby," you know it ain't a put-on.

There's hip to be found if you know where to look.

Dorn recently put together the Bobby Darin collection Aces Back To Back for his own Hyena label. With Rhino releasing the soundtrack to the new Kevin Spacey-starring biopic Beyond The Sea, the time's right to talk Darin; so I asked Dorn about working with the late singer's family archives. He also shared stories of past studio work, as well as his philosophy on producing artists and assembling reissues.

Who are some of your favorite artists you've worked with?
I'll give you the ones everybody knows: Roberta Flack, Bette Midler, Aaron Neville, Leon Redbone, The Allman Brothers, Les McCann and Eddie Harris, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, Yusef Lateef, David Fathead Newman, Charles Mingus.

How does producing a jazz artist differ from producing a pop artist?
Let me answer the question backwards. If I go in to make a record I only make records with one kind of artist -- a world-class original. World-class originals bring everything you need to the table. Your job there is to capture it and possibly complement it. If you're a Phil Spector kind of producer, where what you do is create the entire universe and then at the end paste the artist on -- paste is maybe a little pejorative -- put the artist in last after you've created the universe, then the important part is the universe you create, and you have to have a proper vehicle on top. I do it backwards. So there's no difference for me. Any artist I produce I produce the same way, because I only produce one kind of artist, regardless of the genre. Now, if you make a big pop record like we did with Bette Midler years ago, first we captured what she did and then we built a pop record around her. If you make a jazz record with Rahsaan Roland Kirk, he brought everything to the table.

In the context of a jazz singer or a jazz combo, is it mostly sifting through performances, guiding performances, getting sounds?
If you're making a classical record, if you record the Philadelphia Orchestra doing Schumann, you record five Schumann pieces. What you're looking for is interpretation. If Les McCann comes in and says, 'I want to do a Gershwin album,' it's basically the same thing. I'm capturing what it is that he's doing. I'll give you an example from when I worked with Yusef Lateef. When I worked as a disc jockey I always got great responses to certain cuts by Yusef Lateef when I played them -- stuff from Prestige, Impulse, and the labels he was with before he came with us to Atlantic. With him I would say, 'I want to do album of your impressions of Detroit, where you grew up. I want to do a broad look at the blues. I want to do an album where there are four long cuts but no two cuts relate to each other in any way.' So I would give him themes and he would come back with them, but once he came back with them it was his repertoire. Some people I had more latitude with than others, because they would say, 'Go do your magic,' and I would do my cute stuff. With some people, the record was done when the session was done. It varies. I've done gospel artists like Marion Williams, where I went to her church and just recorded a Saturday evening prayer service.

Let's talk about your Bobby Darin package.
I never worked with him when he was alive. The only thing I did with him is the set we just did [Aces Back To Back], and that was with the cooperation of his family. I got the family stash. I got the rights to the TV shows. I got the rights to all the stuff that nobody else had, because you guys [Rhino] have all the Atco stuff from the Atlantic catalog. Capitol has what they have, so I can't compete with that. And I'm not interested. I'm trying to paint another picture.

How's your picture different?
Well, first of all, I got a boatload of live performances, and I got lots of things he never recorded but only performed. And I also have stuff that no one's ever heard, because he did a series of shows for the American Dairy Association. He did 120 shows where he just sang standards with a trio. Well, there's no standards with a trio anyplace with Bobby Darin. Then I have the things he did on his own label when he was disgusted with the rest of the labels in the world. Well, those things sold a copy and a half. Great stuff, but no one ever knew about it. Then I have all the stuff from his TV show, where he did his hits, but they had evolved from the beginning. So we have a thing he did in Vegas on 'If I Were A Carpenter.' Very self-servingly I'll tell you it's the best version I ever heard him do, including the single. I had close to 30 versions of 'Mack The Knife' to pick from. 'Beyond The Sea,' I have his live performance version that he did on his TV show, where he has a 10-minute tag. The other thing was, I wanted to show all the things he could do -- the folk rock, the protest, the swingin' Sinatra stuff, the rock 'n' roll stuff, the tender ballads that you didn't think he could do.

Was it your goal to give a good, rounded overview?
I wanted to give an overview of as much of the picture of him as I could, as much of what it was he did, and to capture the things where he did it at the height of his powers. When you hear a record, even a classic record, and then you go see the artist in person... Not taking away from the classic nature of the record, a great artist in person sometimes gives you stuff that the record can never give. First of all, the record is generally done at the beginning of when you know a song. But the performance evolves, where it's grown into something that only time can make happen.

How did your impression of Darin change as a result of the project?
The impression didn't change much, because I saw him live one time in late 1967-early '68. When I saw him live, that's when I knew who he was, and that's the Bobby Darin I wanted. I wanted to get enough material that would make people see, hear, and feel what I saw, heard, and felt the night when I saw him live. I was 25. I was a fan of his records, but I had no idea what he was like for real until I saw him in person. I was just doing jazz back then. By the time I started having hits and winning Grammys and getting platinum records, he was gone. So by the time I could make an approach to him, it was too late. And I always wanted to do something with his work. It's like I did the Coltrane box for you guys. I never recorded Coltrane, but I found stuff that no one ever heard, and then I could make [the Rhino box] The Heavyweight Champion.

I don't make many new records. Every once and a while. I did a girl a few years ago named Jane Monheit, and she took off. But mostly I like to work with estates, like I work with Thelonious Monk's estate. I have their family stash. Dr. John gave me 500 live shows of his. I'm getting ready to do a package of a tape I ran across of Joe Williams and Ben Webster that nobody ever knew existed. It's magnificent. I have a Don McLean package I'm putting together from his private stash, live performances for CD and DVD. There's not a lot out there that rings my bell. There's lots of stuff for lots of people, but I can only make what I like, and also something I can bring something to. I can't bring much to Green Day. And I don't care too much about Chingy, you know. It's just not my thing. I'm 62 years old. I'm an old dog, and there's a certain kind of music I like, so I just keep making those black and white 16mm movies, and I try and make 'em for now.

Is there an ear training process involved in doing what you do?
Once again, I'm fortunate. I have no skills, I only have abilities. But I know people who do have skills. My engineer for the past 35 years is a guy named Gene Paul, whose father is Les Paul. So he grew up in a house where modern recording was kind of invented, or certainly one of the places. I always say he gets the sound I would ask for if I knew what to ask for. I really don't have any skills. I do have abilities, so I have to work with people who do have skills. I've always done that. I'm not an engineer, I'm not a musician, I'm not an arranger, I'm not a singer, I'm not a dancer, I'm not an anything. But I have a good instinct for putting teams together. My hero's Red Auerbach, who used to put those great Boston Celtics teams together. He had a job and he did it a certain way no matter who the point guard was. If it was Bill Russell and Bob Coosey, and then years later it was Dave Cowans or Havlicek or Larry Bird, they played Boston Celtics style. I have that as my model.

Are you involved in remixing?
Very little. We're working mainly from tapes that nobody knows exist. We know how to do something that most people don't care about, but we know how to do it.

What are your thoughts on unfinished recordings, demos, things that maybe the artist didn't intend to release?
If it rings a certain bell in me. First of all, Dr. John has this great line. He says, 'They don't call 'em outtakes for nothin',' so it has to resonate a certain way with you. Just because something is a demo or an outtake doesn't mean it's good, and conversely it doesn't mean it's bad. The music tells you what to do. One of the things that I find slightly imbecilic with a lot of record companies is, they're doing a box set or a reissue and they put anything that hasn't been released on there. It's a disservice to the artist. So what you have to do is you have to find the stuff that works. I've always gone by my gut, so if I go through a pile of tapes, the one that rings my bell I pretty much trust as something that works. Just because it's unreleased, just because it's an alternate take, just because it's a rarity doesn't mean it fits in with what you're doing.

Does it work as a piece of music, not just as a curiosity?
I'm so not interested in a curiosity, I can't even tell you. That's for amateurs. 'Look at that!' Who cares? Is it something where you say, 'Wow, I don't believe this. This is spectacular.' That's the thing that works for me. Sometimes a curio or an oddity is cute. You throw it in. But with an artist who is a one-of-a-kind, world-class genius, you're doing him a disservice if you just throw something in because you can.

What were Darin's strengths, as you see them?
Two places. He was simultaneously one of the best singers and best entertainers of the second half of the 20th century. There are great entertainers who are really not great singers. There are great singers who are not especially good entertainers. He was at the top level of both of those. And to boot, he was a producer, he's in the Songwriters Hall Of Fame, he was a Grammy winner, he was an Academy Award-nominated actor. Anything he touched, he went right up top. Who else does that? Nobody, including Sammy Davis. Nobody else did what he did. He died young. He really didn't get a chance to grow into himself or he didn't get a chance for people to see him. People always ask me, 'If Bobby were alive, what would he be doing?' I have no idea, because people like that, you never know what they're gonna do, but they have so many unbelievable abilities that whatever they would do, they would do well.

Some thought that the folk stuff was a misstep. I take it you don't agree with that.
Absolutely not. Listen to how he does Dylan's 'I'll Be Your Baby Tonight.' Listen to how he does 'If I Were A Carpenter,' 'A Simple Song Of Freedom.' Then when you get into some of the things you never heard -- I never heard them -- a song called 'Jive' and a song called 'Long Time Movin',' they don't miss for me.

I enjoyed that Chris Connor anthology [Warm Cool] you did a few years ago.I called her up one day and said, 'Listen, no one's ever done a compilation of your Atlantic years. Work with me.' She said, 'Oh, you do it,' and I said, 'I ain't doin' it without you.' Because I don't know her work the way I know some other people's work. And I said, 'Just take an hour. Pick what ya like. I don't want to make this record and then you call up and say, Why did you include that?' So she reluctantly took a couple of days, called me up and said, 'These are the songs I want.' I said, 'Good, you got a sequence?' She said, 'No, you sequence it.' All right.

You know, sometimes when you're the producer, you're not the general. You're there to facilitate something. Some things where I really know it and I know what I'm doing -- or at least I think I do -- I do the whole thing. Other times, like when I did a Judy Garland box, I worked with a Judy Garland expert. When I do stuff with some of the jazz guys whose records I've produced, I'm the expert. With Bobby Darin, I did it with his official archivist and his manager. At the end they were my choices, but I did it in conjunction with them, because I didn't know his whole body of work, the secret stuff and all of that. You know, the older I get, the more I like playing team ball. Detroit won last year because they played like a team. Everybody else was full of stars.

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